Thoughts on Peter's book

[Starchild41]

Yeah, I think my feelings as a kid in the 70's will always remain solid. It's what they're doing today that gets challenged because I'm no longer a child looking through rose colored glasses. I can still look back on the 70's and feel like I was observing a phenomenon like no other. I still believe that. It was an amazing time. Today's band is not even a shadow of that.

[Geosav]

Yeah, I think my feelings as a kid in the 70's will always remain solid. It's what they're doing today that gets challenged because I'm no longer a child looking through rose colored glasses. I can still look back on the 70's and feel like I was observing a phenomenon like no other. I still believe that. It was an amazing time. Today's band is not even a shadow of that.

Well said! I remember they were like the greatest in the 70s when I was a kid. I thought they could do no wrong.

[Starchild41]

The part that still lingers with me is the Psycho Circus piece. I spoke with a childhood buddy of mine about that last night and his words were practically in lockstep with mine before I even had a chance to say them. After I read him the story he said, "Jesus that is huge. That is really an act of fraud on the buying public. Because most people bought that record based on the premise it was the original band. And if Ace and Peter were bribed to remain silent, then that's a deliberate act of deception to sell records." Exactly. There is not much difference between this and what Millie Vanilli did. You think your hearing Ace and Peter, but your not. I think Paul, Gene, and Doc should be called out on it. It's bullsh*t. And legally the consumer could ask for their money to be refunded. It's a complete misrepresentation of the truth. Of course the band never got close to selling gold again after that anyway, so I guess the truth caught them anyway. Well deserved too. That just left a bad taste for me that won't be going away anytime soon. It's one thing to have your picture on the cover of a record like Creatures. But when the album is marketed and publicly spoken about as the original four members, that becomes an entirely different deception. That's a completely misleading statement expressed to generate sells and that's wrong. Also that album brought about a suit anyway from Alice Cooper which KISS ended up having to settle out of court. Here's the case:

Coop Vs. Kiss Case Put to Rest
Legal battle between Alice Cooper and Kiss settled out of court

Eleven months after Alice Cooper's former publishers filed a suit for copyright infringement against Kiss frontman Paul Stanley and former guitarist Bruce Kulick, the parties have reached an out-of-court settlement.

Six Palms Music Corp., which filed the complaint with the U.S. District Court in Los Angeles on Oct. 28, 1998, contended that the Kiss song "Dreamin,'" from their latest album, Psycho Circus, sounded far too
much like the Cooper classic "Eighteen," released back in 1971. The company, which published the Cooper hit, alleges that Stanley had to have heard the chart-topping single on numerous occasions since the two groups were contemporaries in the Seventies shock rock scene.

According to insiders, Six Palms was initially asking for a rather high settlement amount and planned to take the case to court, but once the lawyers for Kiss's label presented them with the disappointing sales figures for Circus, they lowered the amount they were asking. Paul Stanley and Bruce Kulick were in attendance at the settlement talks, but Cooper was not. The parties reached their agreement on August 12.

Ironically, Bruce Kulick's brother Bob toured with the Alice Cooper in 1975 during their Welcome to My Nightmare tour, and he even produced last year's Alice Cooper tribute album, Humanary Stew, playing on its rendition of "Eighteen."

Evan Cohen, lawyer for Six Palms, confirmed that the case had been settled, but declined to give any further details. Cooper's management also confirmed that a settlement had been reached, but said they had no further details: "We heard that the suit had been settled, but since we weren't party to it, we didn't expect an official confirmation." Although no one is saying, it's rumored that the settlement was in the low six figures. Calls to McGhee Entertainment, Kiss's management company, were not returned.

[Kiss777]

There are a lot of things Peter left out of that Psycho Circus story it wasn't KISS just went to them and said look we are giving you this much money but you cannot play on the album.
No Peter and Ace's lawyers and KISS lawyers went round in round in negotiations and meanwhile Bruce Fairbairn the albums producer really didn't want them on the album they wanted to get it out fast.
So they ended up getting paid for the parts they did play on and it wasn't really hush money but for the work that they did do on it.
Now yes they did want to present the album as a band effort to keep up the front that they were still a solid band and of course that really wasn't the truth, things were breaking down big time.

[Starchild41]

What your saying is the popular version fed to the public by Paul and Gene. I'm familiar with that. What Peter says does not leave that out so much as offer a different perspective. Because if both Ace and Peter were paid "not to play" as Peter said, then it would make sense that their attorneys got involved so they COULD play. Because if you recall, he said they didn't take the money. Ace had to use his attorneys just to get a song on the record. What we do know about Paul and Gene being control freaks and manipulating Peter and Ace would certainly support this perspective. I applaud Peter and Ace for not taking the money or signing Doc's paperwork allowing Paul do it his way without them and lie to the public about it. So it only sounds typical that Paul and Gene would deflect those claims by saying, "Oh it's Peter and Ace causing trouble again." I don't buy that for every event in the band's existence. Paul and Gene have been caught many times manipulating the public, so I can't just excuse it all away as a "poor camaraderie" moment. That's such a tired one liner and too cliche' for the money that was in play here for an album "supposedly" made by the original members. I think Paul and Gene wanted full control and figured Peter and Ace could be bought. They were wrong.

Now I'm not asking you or anyone here to change how they want to feel about the band. We're fans and to what degree, what era, and what reasons are personal and absolutely each person's right to express. But as a CONSUMER, I would hope if some of this is not necessarily surprising it should, at bare minimum, be disappointing. It's very disheartening to think how badly we all could have been deceived if Peter and Ace would have taken those bribes. And by signing that paperwork, they never could have told the story as it unfolded. Now, how anyone wants to weigh that against their "fan-hood" is for each person to determine. But as a reasonable, rationale, intelligent, human being, this type of revelation leaves me cold to this "product". Forget about being a fan. Forget about your collection. And forget about those concerts. These guys sat in a room and in a very deliberate and calculated method, conspired to completely lie to the public in order to make a buck. They basically said we were all a bunch of saps and could be manipulated into a purchase to net them big money. That has nothing to do with artistic differences in the studio. That has nothing to do with career needs. That has nothing to do with a band member not showing up to play. And it has nothing to do with business needs that required someone else play. That was a plot designed to lie to you and me and place Peter and Ace in a legal corner that would deny them any recourse to say anything about it. That offends me and offends me greatly. No, I don't expect Paul or Gene to care about fans. They don't. It's income. But to misrepresent product entirely is crossing the line between artist and consumer. And if you can't trust them to believe who played on a record, how can you know they did what they claimed to have done either? Who else is getting paid off? There's just a fundamental truth in advertising that should always hold true. And in my eyes, they crossed that in a really bad way.

[Kiss777]

No I'm basing my information on people who were close to the band at that time were saying not just repeating what Paul and Gene said.
But whatever I'm done with it.

[Starchild41]

That's great and I fully believe that YOU believe in what was said. But I also don't believe for five seconds these people close to the band would have been privileged to a pay off scheme. That's not something you discuss over coffee with friends. That's a back room deal and only the people involved would know. Paul and Gene are too seasoned. No one would go outside that frame to discuss it. They know what they were doing and the cloud of deception started the minute they walked out that room. When it fell apart, I'm quite sure they started bitching to those around them and the narrative was built from there - "It's Ace and Peter's fault." Knowing what has been said from so many involved with Paul and Gene, it's hard to know who is truly a confidante and who is an unwitting puppet by association. But as you indicate, it's another perspective.

[b_dunn2003]

I am getting my book today and am looking forward to reading it. Starchild, you might want to consider changing your moniker ha ha. Anyway, compare for a second all the stuff 'that we know about' that happened within the camp. Now imagine how meaningless it all is when you compare it to our own governments. are just four guys and look at all the crap they did and are doing. Apply that principal to government and WOW...there are a lot of ROTTEN people out there doing a lot of ROTTEN things to people. It's kinda scary to think about.

[shock_me_strutter]

.

[Kiss777]

Kiss should've, and needed to take a minimum two to three years off after the Destroyer tour. Peters arms were a total mess by then, but eisen and witz were control freaks. Peter and ace should've refused to do rock and roll over so quick. They needed rehab and rest. Paul and gene and the rest of the camp should've realized this but the whole camp was also complete coke addicts/greedy money makers including aucoin. Rock and roll over should've came out in 1978 or 1979. I should've been manager.

"eisen and witz" weren't calling the shots at that time they were jumping themselves' when Aucoin and the rest of management told them too.
I agree some rest would have been good for all of them but things were moving fast and most bands will play the hot hand while they have it.
And it's not so much greed as it is taking advantage of that big break when you get it, looking back now it's easy to Monday morning quarterback but things were breaking quick and the band was on their way to the top.